RE: Hal's Reply to RE: Hal's Reply

Hal's in red I'm in blue. Well, I am not finished, but I will make a couple of observations. First, it is, to me, obvious, that the singularity and heaven are NOT synonymous, but that the incomplete description that we are presented by mankind's limited understanding of true science, of the singularity postulated as the beginning of the chaotic universe, indicates that the bohuw and tohuw mentioned in Gen.1, are the Hebrew words describing the effect of the fall, while entropy is the so-called, (no offense meant to science), scientific terminology. Genisis speaks of an entropic state AFTER CREATION, not before. The idea that I am claiming the word which is translated creation, is one that indicates building from previously existing material, is not what I said, nor is indicated by my arguement. It is stated before the statement about the chaos and ruin, not after. A large parft of what I am doing, in my arguement, is an attempt to show that the evidence we see in observation of the natural universe, actually coincides with scripture. If you would re-assess the statements I make, in that context, it might be helpful to both of us. I will get back to this, later, in a more complete address, INCLUDING the part I have not yet attempted to address. (Oh, your comment about my lack of understanding was not meant to insult, just poorly phrased humor & a comment that the explanation was not as lucid as I am used to getting from you. Phrasing is sometimes the key to comprehension. Sorry I am not equipped to draw perfect correlaries from you. Sometimes, I think I am more suited for rock-&-roll. I don't think you can argue this way. First off the "and the" at the start of Gen 1:2 is an addition for the English it does not appear in the Hebrew. The Hebrew reads beginning God created the Heaven the Earth. The Earth to be(was) tohuw bohuw. I think what you see here is not a this then that structure, but a general statement, "God created the universe" followed by specificity of how such creation took place. Moses uses this sort of structure many times and you need look no further than to the end of Ch 1 to find and example Gen 1:27 God creates man male and female, Gen 2:7 God creates man, Gen 2:22 God creates woman. So how many times did God create man and woman? Once. This is repetition. I realize that you will say that I am forcing an exegetical style which you do not intend, but you are demandng that the text read this then this when the language does not demand it, and disallowing that it is repetition with a greater degree of specificity. Therefore if we are to take your understanding seriously then we must apply it to all examples as such. For example the Gospels say that Judas hanged himself and Acts says he fell headlong and his guts spilled out, but he didn't die twice. How many times does God promise the Messiah, but there is only one. How many times does God promise an heir to Abraham, but there is only one. Moses many times in the Torah gives the people instruction, "You shall be holy," and then gives long explanations of it is to be done. Moses tells the people that they will build the tabernacle, and then goes into long detailed explanations of how it is to be done. I think what is seen here is the same thing. In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. <--- Blanket statement. The Earth was without form and void and the Spirit of the Lord brooded over the face of the waters... <---Beginning of explanation of how the creation took place. Moses proclaims that God created from nothing the universe and then shaped it. You could argue that the shaping is a result of the ruination of Creation, but you do not answer how Satan could have fallen to an Earth which did not exist. I think that Satan's fall took place in the time of Jesus Earthly ministry. Jesus tells the disciples that he saw Satan fall (Luke 10:13-23) and that he is now bound (Luke 11:16-26). The reason I say this is that Job tells us plainly that Satan has access to Throne of God, but the New Testament speaks of him as a defeated foe who can no longer make accusations against the Saints (Romans 8:28-38, Rev 12:10). Revelation 12 tells us that Satan swept down the stars after he had stood against the woman and her child, and that the taking of the third is what began the war in heaven after which no place was found for him. Well, since Satan (Job) has a place in Heaven before the cross, and no place after I think the war might well have taken place as Christ hung on the cross. When Satan tempted Eve he lost his position before the Throne, but he still had access predicated on his being the rightful owner of the Earth as God had given it to Adam and Adam ceded his authority to Satan, an authority which Jesus took for His own when He defeated Satan. The Bible is replete with references to Satan being the possessor of the world (not the least of which is his uncontradicted claim before Christ during the temptations in the wilderness), but after the cross he is referred to as the god of this world and the master of the spirits of the air, but never again the rightful title holder of the earth. I don't offer this as I know for certain this is true, I am really bad at prophecy you know that, but I am offering it with textual backing because I think the full sense of the Scripture does not support a fall for Satan before Genesis 1:2.